So I've been arguing in YouTube comments again. Between Friday and today I had three separate conversations about predestination. All three conversations went almost exactly the same way (summarily), and it was uncanny.

In all  three conversations, I pointed at Romans 9:6-13, where it talks about how God chose Jacob rather than Esau before either of them had been born.

In all three, the responder said something to the effect of "Your views are unscriptural [no evidence provided]! A just God wouldn't do that.", which is really amazing, because that's exactly what Paul expects in Romans 9:14.

So then I pointed to the next section of Romans 9 (15-18), where it talks about how God predetermined to raise up Pharaoh and then harden his heart and kill him, presumably not sending him to heaven.

In all three discussions, the responder said something to the effect of "I've looked at Romans 9, and I've determined conclusively that you're interpreting it incorrectly [again, no verse references provided]. How can a just God punish someone when He predetermined/caused their actions?". At this point, my mind is totally blown. I want to assume that they aren't lying about reading the passage, and it would be weird for me to have three conversations with people who claimed to read the text but didn't, in such a short period, but it's like Romans 9 is the script and I'm just on the stage with them.

So I responded by saying "Let me know if this is a fair paraphrase of your question: 'How can he still find fault, because who can resist his will?'" And then, without waiting for a response, I pointed them to Romans 9:19+.

At this point, in the three conversations:
One of them stopped responding, and he was pretty quick so I think he's done.

One responded by saying "If what you say is true, then 2 Peter 3:8-10 should not be a part of the cannon..." at which point another fine Calvinist took the conversation over before I had a chance to respond. He said basically the same thing I would have said: that 2 Peter 3:8-10 is, in its context, about Jesus not returning until the full number of the saints has been saved.

And I'm waiting on a response from the last guy. He's slow, so I still expect a response from him.

Anyway, I just wanted to get that out, because it was really surreal.

"...a derivative will, a derivative choice..."